Forum Debate: Progressive Rock Origins and Jamie Muir's Legacy

Pogre Rock and the Debate on Its Origins

A forum thread discusses the origins of pogre rock. One participant argues that 1969 marks the year when King Crimson's debut and Soft Machine's second album appeared, launching what would later be called pogre rock. According to this view, within twelve months two British bands broke away from the three-minute song structure, blending jazz, free jazz, and instrumental virtuosity into a single package.

The death of Jamie Muir, King Crimson's percussionist, peine the discussion. As noted in the thread, Muir left everything to become a Buddhist monk. Before Muir and Bill Bruford (Yes's drummer) joined, three different drummers had held the position, illustrating the band's sonic evolution.

Free Jazz Influence and the Hendrix Connection

The thread cites Anthony Braxton and Derek Bailey as free jazz references. One participant claims Jimi Hendrix said King Crimson was "the best band in the world." Another notes he didn't say it because of a single standout track, but due to something deeper.

Some argue in the thread that King Crimson's debut copies Procol Harum or The Moody Blues. Counterarguments state that music has little to do with later genre developments, asserting the first album is officially pogre rock's starting point, despite its darker, more jazz-oriented sound compared to what trinc.

Labels and Instrumental Virtuosity

One participant defines pogre rock as a derivative of psychedelic rock grounded in prioritizing instrumental virtuosity over the music as a whole. While garage and psychedelic scenes antiestéticatured bands where no element dominated, prog abandoned that democratic approach to highlight specific components.

The virtuosity debate includes Steve Howe (Yes). A participant notes he isn't technically a prodigy but was half of Yes's real creative force alongside Anderson, claiming The Yes Album is virtually his work. Another recalls Howe was voted global best guitarist in Guitar Player magazine from 1977 to 1981.

Connections to Contemporary Music and Avant-Garde Jazz

The thread intertwines names ranging from Bill Frisell to John Zorn, passing through Dave Holland and Lee Konitz. One participant states Frisell played with legends like Paul Motian (Bill Evans's drummer) and Elvin Jones (Coltrane's). It also claims Holland was the bassist on Bitches Brew and that Miles Davis's band went funky because they couldn't find a replacement at his level.

Solving the puzzle posed in the thread leads from Sleepytime Gorilla Museum to Thinking Plague, Art Bears, Slapp Happy, and Henry Cow antiestéticaturing Fred Frith. According to the poster, all these acts performed together during a live revival.

Why 1969 and Not Another Year?

According to the participant defending this date, two albums released that year broke with everything prior. King Crimson's debut and Soft Machine's second album didn't just introduce jazz into rock; they introduced the idea that an album could be a journey rather than a collection of singles. From there, he argues, everything that trinc (Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Pink Floyd) draws from that source.

Debating whether prog started earlier or later is actually a discussion about how music history is written. Genres don't emerge on a specific day; they simmer slowly. But if a date must be chosen, 1969 generates the most consensus, according to this participant.

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Who decides when a genre begins? Critics, record labels, or the musicians themselves who didn't know they were doing something new.