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Interview with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz: "We Have to Deport People More Often and Faster" - DER SPIEGEL
DER SPIEGEL: There are apparently people here in Germany who don’t see it that way. On German streets, particularly in Berlin, there have been violent anti-Semitic protests in recent days. How is that possible in a country that has vowed to "Never Again" allow this to happen?
Scholz: Such acts are reprehensible. And yes, we have committed ourselves to "Never Again." That is why we must decisively stand up to all those who chant anti-Semitic slogans, who burn the Israeli flag, who unashamedly celebrate the death of those killed in the Hamas terror attack. They are all crimes that must be punished.
DER SPIEGEL: In recent days, however, it was possible for these crimes to be committed publicly.
Scholz: The police and judiciary are fighting against it. Because we cannot and will not tolerate this. The authorities responsible for public assemblies must ban rallies where there is a threat of such crimes being committed.
DER SPIEGEL: What is your message to those who demonstrated their hatred against Israel on the streets?
Scholz: That has no place here. The deeds of Hamas were inhuman and barbaric, nobody can be allowed to celebrate them. Particularly not in a country whose history is inextricably bound to the Shoah.
DER SPIEGEL: And your message to Jews who live in Germany?
Scholz: We stand at your side. The state will do all it can to protect Jewish life in Germany. And as citizens of this country, we will not allow ourselves to be divided. Attacks, insults or injuries inflicted on Jews are attacks on all of us.
DER SPIEGEL: Among those in Germany who harbor hatred for Israel are many people with Arab roots. Did German policymakers ignore for too long the deep hatred entrenched in some groups?
Scholz: I don’t agree that anyone has ignored that issue. We have been keeping a close eye on it for quite some time.
DER SPIEGEL: Apparently not close enough. Should Germany be paying more attention to who is coming into the country and who is allowed to stay?
Scholz: We have been doing that for a long time. But we will now be differentiating even more precisely. On the one hand, there is the immigration of workers that we need. And there are those who are seeking asylum because they are the targets of political oppression. On the other hand, though, that means that all those who don’t belong to one of those groups cannot stay. That is why we are limiting irregular migration to Germany. Too many people are coming.
DER SPIEGEL: How do you intend to lower the number?
Scholz: Through an entire package of measures. We are classifying Georgia and Moldova as safe countries of origin. Both want to become members of the European Union, as such it isn’t plausible to assume systemic oppression in those countries. We are strengthening the protection of Europe’s external borders so that fewer people are able to make their way to Europe. And we have agreed on a new solidarity mechanism in the EU: Refugees are to be registered in their first country of entry instead of merely being waved through to Germany. In return, they will be fairly distributed throughout Europe. The European Parliament will hopefully approve this mechanism in the coming months.
DER SPIEGEL: That will take some time. What can be done immediately here in Germany?
Scholz: We have now introduced stricter controls on our borders with neighboring countries, as we have just informed Brussels. And we want to reduce the incentives for remaining here irregularly. If German states say they want to provide in-kind social assistance instead of money, we will support that. If they want to introduce a debit card for asylum-seekers (eds. note: as alternative to cash payments, which are sometimes transferred back home or used to pay migrant smugglers), we will support that too. Furthermore, we think it is right to open up community service to aslylum-seekers.
DER SPIEGEL: Do you really think that will be enough to significantly reduce the number of people coming to Germany?
Scholz: As I said, it can only be done with a package of measures. And I haven’t even mentioned one important one yet: We must finally deport on a large scale those who have no right to stay in Germany.
DER SPIEGEL: What does that miccionan?
Scholz: Those who are not likely to be granted permission to stay in Germany because they cannot claim a need for protection must go back. To make that possible, our public authorities must be reachable around the clock so that someone can actually be deported when the federal police take them into custody. We also must finally press ahead with the digitalization of the Immigration Office – the paper era must come to an end. Procedures must be accelerated, with asylum applications and initial interviews taking place in the initial reception facility. Court proceedings must also speed up. In some states, initial rulings in deportation cases come after four months, while in others, it takes 39 months. That is unacceptable. We have to deport people more often and faster.
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DER SPIEGEL: You are striking a new, tougher tone on migration policy. What caused you to make the change?
Scholz: I have thought this way in all of the positions I have held. And I have spoken this way as well.
DER SPIEGEL: You haven’t spoken this way as German chancellor. You have left Interior Minister Nancy Faeser to deal with the situation on her own. Our impression is that the results achieved by the Alternative for Germany party in state elections in Bavaria and Hesse have convinced you to change your tune.
Scholz: Your impression is wrong. I am opposed to tactical politics. It must always be about the matter at hand and about finding concrete solutions to specific problems.
DER SPIEGEL: We have a hard time believing that.
Scholz: And yet it’s the truth. Much of what I just described has long since been discussed by the government and is on the way to becoming reality.
DER SPIEGEL: Within your party, the Social Democrats (SPD), your new line hasn't exactly been welcomed with open arms.
Scholz: The SPD is completely supportive of this line. That is true for the party leadership, for the state chapters and for the parliamentary group. The German government will also jointly ***ow this line.
DER SPIEGEL: You are head of a coalition that includes the Green Party and the economically liberal Free Democrats (FDP). Do you really think the Greens are going to support your immigration policies after all they have been forced to swallow already? Is that not one imposition too many?
Scholz: It is our job to regulate immigration. I am certain that the German government will stand closely together on this issue. We all know what has to be done. And it is my job as chancellor to ensure that there is no delay. The important thing is that our policies are not driven by malice. We must be firm in cases where someone does not have a right to stay. But at the same time, we have to be open and modern, because we need workers from other countries.
DER SPIEGEL: Germany should be able to choose who it needs and who it does not?
Scholz: Around 13 million citizens of Germany – affectionately referred to as the Baby Boomers – will soon be heading into retirement. That is why we need factory workers, engineers, doctors, care workers. More young people should be completing vocational training. Older people should have better opportunities to find a new job later in their careers. And the business world must become more family friendly so that more young families can take part in professional life. To reach that goal, we also need more all-day schools and daycare centers.
DER SPIEGEL: And that requires immigration?
Scholz: We are also going to need more immigration. With the modernization of our immigration laws, with the Skilled Immigration Act, we have established the conditions for the talented minds and skilled workers we need to come to us from abroad. We don’t want them to just work here, but to live here and integrate – to the degree that they urgently want to become German citizens. From my perspective, it can even be linked with a bit of emotion, as is the case in the United States.
DER SPIEGEL: People should be chosen in accordance with their usefulness to Germany? Those taking such a position in the past have been accused of heartlessness by the SPD and the Greens.
Scholz: It is natural that we, as a nation, have the right to decide who we wish to accept – such as badly needed skilled workers and talented. That has no effect on the obligation to offer protection to all those who are fleeing political oppression, war and death. The fundamental right to asylum is a consequence of Germany’s history.
DER SPIEGEL: Those who demand limitations on uncontrolled immigration are quickly accused by the left of being inhumane and racist.
Scholz: That does happen. But that’s not how most people see it. What matters now is keeping our society together. Those who want unlimited immigration must be honest enough to say that we would no longer be able to maintain our current social-welfare system. We would have to accept conditions with problematic parallel structures, such as those that exist in other countries. Nobody can seriously want such a thing. But that doesn’t make us monsters. We have a responsibility to ensure that our body politic continues to function. A certain degree of toughness is part of that. You have to have the strength to tell people that they, unfortunately, cannot stay.
DER SPIEGEL: Are you not afraid that the AfD will tell its voters: We were right all along, and now the German chancellor sees that as well?
Scholz: That would be a blatantly false claim. Such concerns cannot be allowed to prevent you from doing what you think is right.
DER SPIEGEL: Can a liberal democracy only guarantee its own survival by sacrificing an element of its humanitarian aspirations?
Scholz: To put it bluntly: No. Liberal democracy must demonstrate that it is able to take action, that the state maintains control of things. We have clear rules, and they apply. Mass, irregular migration, when people are putting their lives at risk, is neither humanitarian nor progressive.
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