*Tema mítico* : Hilo oficial de Bitcoin-XIII

vpsn dijo:

Ojo que esta puede ser la ultima oportunidad de comprar por debajo los 6000

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Nailuj2000 dijo:

Quienes tengais BCH deberíais venderlos ahora mismo.
Porque lo cierto es que el BCH sólo lo conocen los cuatro frikis que saben de que va la cosa esa de las criptomonedas. Y ahí afuera hay un montón de gente, millones, que están pensando en comprar los "bitcoins esos", por si fuera verdad eso que han oido de que en x años valdrá un millón. Y a todos esos no les hables de otra cosa que no sea bitcoin, que con las cortesana no se juega y nadie da duros a cuatro pesetas y yo lo que quiero es el bitcoin, el auténtico, el original. Me lo ha dicho mi cuñao, XD.

Hasta el BTG se va a trinc al BCH, pues mola mucho mas, porque se puede minar con la gráfica., 🙂

Grabaros este mensaje, escrito en este momento en que algunos andais flipandolo con el BCH y recordadlo cuando vuestra shitcoin no valga una guano.

Un saludillo 🙂

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Timetwister dijo:

Habrá que mirarse lo de coinomi para conseguir los gold.

¿Os van bien las transacciones últimamente? Está tardando todo una barbaridad en pillar la primera confirmación. Tengo pendiente de confirmar aún una transacción que me enviaron ayer.

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sirpask dijo:

¿Quien desarrolla el software de BCH?

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Claudius dijo:

Subestimas mucho la capacidad del libre pensamiento y su capacidad de acceder de forma libre a la información, sea veraz y concisa o no y la gente tome sus decisiones.

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keinur dijo:

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---------- Post added 12-nov-2017 at 08:34 ----------

Tommy World Power ��
@TommyWorldPower
·
17h
Bitcoin Cash has had 26 blocks per hour on average, for the last 24h. Bitcoin has had 4 (normally both should have 6). Essentially, Bitcoin Cash is getting a lot of hash power strength behind it.

---------- Post added 12-nov-2017 at 07:58 ----------

Preveo HF de emergencia para nivelar la dificultad y sacar a BTC del atolladero. Preveo que Core tendrá que tragar bilis y meter bloques más grandes.

Para muesta lo que está pasando ahora mismo tanto en hashrate como en mempool de la red bitcoin. No da.

---------- Post added 12-nov-2017 at 08:02 ----------

BCH por encima de ETH.

Y la dominancia de Bitcoin, otra vez por debajo del 50%.

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---------- Post added 12-nov-2017 at 08:06 ----------

Motivo de vergüenza para muchos de este hilo... espero que aprendan a ser más cautos con los CONSEJOS que dan a los demás. Y aquellos que los hayan seguido, desde luego que hayan aprendido una lección.

Shitcoin...
Bitcoin Trash...
Bitcoin Crash...

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Se os debería caer la cara de vergüenza.

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tixel dijo:

Por ahora hay 5 equipos desarrolladores independientes no como core que es lo más parecido al stalinismo.

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Speculo dijo:

Yo el bitcoin no lo veo.

Creo que se confunde el valor del bitcoin (y del resto de moneditas) con lo que realmente se puede obtener a cambio con él en una transacción.

Bitcoin, a día de hoy, lo diga quien lo diga, no vale para nada más que para especular. Y por lo que he podido leer en este hilo al respecto de ciertas casas de cambio, ni para eso. Es un producto especulativo que se compra y se vende usando moneda de curso legal, o fiat, lo que queráis decir. En la vida real, si yo quiero usar bitcoins para comprar algo real en una tienda real (amazon, ebay o el puro corte inglés), no puedo hacerlo. Si después de mucho buscar consigo encontrar quien acepte un pago de un servicio o producto en esta moneda, me fríen a comisiones, el precio de ese producto será mayor que en un sitio habitual y no veo mayor seguridad que la que me ofrece una transferencia bancaria normal: el dinero llega igual a la otra parte y yo me quedo esperando a que la otra parte me mande el producto o me garantice el servicio. ¿Dónde está el avance? Lo mismo, con el añadido de la farragosidad y con más costes, esa es la realidad.
Entiendo el valor de blockchain si la tecnología se logra adaptar a ciertos ámbitos de la vida real diaria, que está también eso por ver, pero el valor de algo como bitcoin y sucedáneos no hay cristo que lo vea a poco que intente hacer algo con ello. Luego no veo porqué se le llama a esto "moneda" cuando no lo es y se defiende como un futuro de libertad y buen rollo. La realidad es que el bitcoin, como medio de pago, como moneda, no vale una higa. Y como refugio del dinero real, tengo muchas dudas al respecto.
¿Para qué vale bitcoin entonces?

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tastas dijo:

Keinur, te dejas (y ya lo puse en un mensaje previo) el número de TPS, y que se están generando bloques de bch como churros. Con un ritmo de inflación brutal, gracias a ese supermecanismo de minado inventado por bch que, sin duda, mantiene la visión de satoshi de crear un bloque cada 2 minutos.

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keinur dijo:

La novela completa, para quien esté inteersado en conocer la historia sobre los acontecimientos recientes:

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People should get the full story of r/bitcoin because it is probably one of the strangest of all reddit subs.

r/bitcoin, the main sub for the bitcoin community is held and run by a person who goes by the pseudonym u/theymos. Theymos not only controls r/bitcoin, but also bitcoin.org and bitcointalk.com. These are top three communication channels for the bitcoin community, all controlled by just one person.

For most of bitcoin's history this did not create a problem (at least not an obvious one anyway) until around mid 2015. This peine to be around the time a new player appeared on the scene, a for-profit company called Blockstream. Blockstream was made up of/hired many (but not all) of the main bitcoin developers. (To be clear, Blockstream was founded before mid 2015 but did not become publicly active until then). A lot of people, including myself, tried to point out there we're some very serious potential conflicts of interest that could arise when one single company controls most of the main developers for the biggest decentralised and distributed cryptocurrency. There were a lot of unknowns but people seemed to give them the benefit of the doubt because they were apparently about to release some new software called "sidechains" that could offer some benefits to the network.

Not long after Blockstream came on the scene the issue of bitcoin's scalability once again came to forefront of the community. This issue came within the community a number of times since bitcoins inception. Bitcoin, as dictated in the code, cannot handle any more than around 3 transactions per second at the moment. To put that in perspective Paypal handles around 15 transactions per second on average and VISA handles something like 2000 transactions per second. The discussion in the community has been around how best to allow bitcoin to scale to allow a higher number of transactions in a given amount of time. I suggest that if anyone is interested in learning more about this problem from a technical angle, they go to r/btc and do a search. It's a complex issue but for many who have trinc bitcoin for many years, the possible solutions seem relatively obvious. Essentially, currently the limit is put in place in just a few lines of code. This was not originally present when bitcoin was first released. It was in fact put in place afterwards as a measure to stop a bloating attack on the network. Because all bitcoin transactions have to be stored forever on the bitcoin network, someone could theoretically simply transmit a large number of transactions which would have to be stored by the entire network forever. When bitcoin was released, transactions were actually for free as the only people running the network were enthusiasts. In fact a single bitcoin did not even have any specific value so it would be impossible set a fee value. This meant that a malicious person could make the size of the bitcoin ledger grow very rapidly without much/any cost which would stop people from wanting to join the network due to the resource requirements needed to store it, which at the time would have been for very little gain.

Towards the end of the summer last year, this bitcoin scaling debate surfaced again as it was becoming clear that the transaction limit for bitcoin was semi regularly being reached and that it would not be long until it would be regularly hit and the network would become congested. This was a very serious issue for a currency. Bitcoin had made pogre over the years to the point of retailers starting to offer it as a payment option. Bitcoin companies like, Microsoft, Paypal, Steam and many more had began to adopt it. If the transaction limit would be constantly maxed out, the network would become unreliable and slow for users. Users and businesses would not be able to make a reliable estimate when their transaction would be confirmed by the network.

Users, developers and businesses (which at the time was pretty much the only real bitcoin subreddit) started to discuss how we should solve the problem r/bitcoin. There was significant support from the users and businesses behind a simple solution put forward by the developer Gavin Andreesen. Gavin was the lead developer after Satoshi Nakamoto left bitcoin and he left it in his hands. Gavin initially proposed a very simple solution of increasing the limit which was to change the few lines of code to increase the maximum number of transactions that are allowed. For most of bitcoin's history the transaction limit had been set far far higher than the number of transactions that could potentially happen on the network. The concept of increasing the limit one time was based on the fact that history had proven that no issue had been cause by this in the past.

A certain group of bitcoin developers decided that increasing the limit by this amount was too much and that it was dangerous. They said that the increased use of resources that the network would use would create centralisation pressures which could destroy the network. The theory was that a miner of the network with more resources could publish many more transactions than a competing small miner could handle and therefore the network would tend towards few large miners rather than many small miners. The group of developers who supported this theory were all developers who worked for the company Blockstream. The argument from people in support of increasing the transaction capacity by this amount was that there are always inherent centralisation pressure with bitcoin mining. For example miners who can access the cheapest electricity will tend to succeed and that bigger miners will be able to find this cheaper electricity easier. Miners who have access to the most efficient computer chips will tend to succeed and that larger miners are more likely to be able to afford the development of them. The argument from Gavin and other who supported increasing the transaction capacity by this method are essentially there are economies of scale in mining and that these economies have far bigger centralisation pressures than increased resource cost for a larger number of transactions (up to the new limit proposed). For example, at the time the total size of the blockchain was around 50GB. Even for the cost of a 500GB SSD is only $150 and would last a number of years. This is in-comparison to the $100,000's in revenue per day a miner would be making.

Various developers put forth various other proposals, including Gavin Andresen who put forth a more conservative increase that would then continue to increase over time inline with technological improvements. Some of the employees of blockstream also put forth some proposals, but all were so conservative, it would take bitcoin many decades before it could reach a scale of VISA. Even though there was significant support from the community behind Gavin's simple proposal of increasing the limit it was becoming clear certain members of the bitcoin community who were part of Blockstream were starting to become increasingly vitriolic and divisive. Gavin then teamed up with one of the other main bitcoin developers Mike Hearn and released a coded (i.e. working) version of the bitcoin software that would only activate if it was supported by a significant majority of the network. What peine next was where things really started to get weird.

After this free and open source software was released, Theymos, the person who controls all the main communication channels for the bitcoin community implemented a new moderation policy that disallowed any discussion of this new software. Specifically, if people were to discuss this software, their comments would be deleted and ultimately they would be banned temporarily or permanently. This caused chaos within the community as there was very clear support for this software at the time and it seemed our best hope for finally solving the problem and moving on. Instead a censorship campaign was started. At first it 'all' they were doing was banning and removing discussions but after a while it turned into actively manipulating the discussion. For example, if a thread was created where there was positive sentiment for increasing the transaction capacity or being negative about the moderation policies or negative about the actions of certain bitcoin developers, the mods of r/bitcoin would selectively change the sorting order of threads to 'controversial' so that the most support opinions would be sorted to the bottom of the thread and the most vitriolic would be sorted to the top of the thread. This was initially very transparent as it was possible to see that the most downvoted comments were at the top and some of the most upvoted were at the bottom. So they then implemented hiding the voting scores next to the users name. This made impossible to work out the sentiment of the community and when combined with selectively setting the sorting order to controversial it was possible control what information users were seeing. Also, due to the very very large number of removed comments and users it was becoming obvious the scale of censorship going on. To hide this they implemented code in their CSS for the sub that completely hid comments that they had removed so that the censorship itself was ******. Anyone in support of scaling bitcoin were removed from the main communication channels. Theymos even proudly announced that he didn't care if he had to remove 90% of the users. He also later acknowledged that he knew he had the ability to block support of this software using the control he had over the communication channels.

While this was all going on, Blockstream and it's employees started lobbying the community by paying for conferences about scaling bitcoin, but with the very very strange rule that no decisions could be made and no complete solutions could be proposed. These conferences were likely strategically (and successfully) created to stunt support for the scaling software Gavin and Mike had released by forcing the community to take a "lets wait and see what comes from the conferences" kind of approach. Since no final solutions were allowed at these conferences, they only served to hinder and splinter the communities efforts to find a solution. As the software Gavin and Mike released called BitcoinXT gained support it started to be attacked. Users of the software were attack by DDOS. Employees of Blockstream were recommending attacks against the software, such as faking support for it, to only then drop support at the last moment to put the network in disarray. Blockstream employees were also publicly talking about suing Gavin and Mike from various different angles simply for releasing this open source software that no one was forced to run. In the end Mike Hearn decided to leave due to the way many members of the bitcoin community had treated him. This was due to the massive disinformation campaign against him on r/bitcoin. One of the many tactics that are used against anyone who does not support Blockstream and the bitcoin developers who work for them is that you will be targeted in a smear campaign (inciso: igual esto os suena, es precisamente lo que hacen algunos en este hilo/foro). This has peine to a number of individuals and companies who showed support for scaling bitcoin. Theymos has threatened companies that he will ban any discussion of them on the communication channels he controls (i.e. all the main ones) for simply running software that he disagrees with (i.e. any software that scales bitcoin).

As time passed, more and more proposals were offered, all against the backdrop of ever increasing censorship in the main bitcoin communication channels. It finally come down the smallest and most conservative solution. This solution was much smaller than even the employees of Blockstream had proposed months earlier. As usual there was enormous attacks from all sides and the most vocal opponents were the employees of Blockstream. These attacks still are ongoing today. As this software started to gain support, Blockstream organised more meetings, especially with the biggest bitcoin miners and made a pact with them. They promised that they would release code that would offer an on-chain scaling solution hardfork within about 4 months, but if the miners wanted this they would have to commit to running their software and only their software. The miners agreed and the ended up not running the most conservative proposal possible. This was in February last year. There is no hardfork proposal in sight from the people who agreed to this pact and bitcoin is still stuck with the exact same transaction limit it has had since the limit was put in place about 6 years ago. Gavin has also been publicly smeared by the developers at Blockstream and a plot was made against him to have him removed from the development team. Gavin has now been, for all intents an purposes, expelled from bitcoin development. This has meant that all control of bitcoin development is in the hands of the developers working at Blockstream.

There is a new proposal that offers a market based approach to scaling bitcoin. This essentially lets the market decide. Of course, as usual there has been attacks against it, and verbal attacks from the employees of Blockstream. This has the biggest chance of gaining wide support and solving the problem for good.

To give you an idea of Blockstream; It has hired most of the main and active bitcoin developers and is now synonymous with the "Core" bitcoin development team. They AFAIK no products at all. They have received around $75m in funding. Every single thing they do is supported by /u/theymos. They have started implementing an entirely new economic system for bitcoin against the will of it's users and have blocked any and all attempts to scaling the network in line with the original vision.

Although this comment is ridiculously long, it really only covers the tip of the iceberg. You could write a book on the last two years of bitcoin. The things that have been going on have been mind blowing. One last thing that I think is worth talking about is the u/bashco's claim of vote manipulation.

The users that the video talks about have very very large numbers of downvotes mostly due to them having a very very high chance of being astroturfers. Around about the same time last year when Blockstream came active on the scene every single bitcoin troll disappeared, and I miccionan literally every single one. In the years before that there were a large number of active anti-bitcoin trolls. They even have an active sub r/buttcoin. Up until last year you could go down to the bottom of pretty much any thread in r/bitcoin and see many of the usual trolls who were heavily downvoted for saying something along the lines of "bitcoin is shit", "You guys and your tulips" etc. But suddenly last year they all disappeared. Instead a new type of bitcoin user appeared. Someone who said they were fully in support of bitcoin but they just so peine to support every single thing Blockstream and its employees said and did. They had the exact same tone as the trolls who had disappeared. Their way to talking to people was aggressive (inciso: igual esto os suena, de nuevo), they'd call people names, they had a relatively poor understanding of how bitcoin fundamentally worked. They were extremely argumentative. These users are the majority of the list of that video. When the 10's of thousands of users were censored and expelled from r/bitcoin they ended up congregating in r/btc. The strange thing was that the users listed in that video also moved over to r/btc and spend all day everyday posting troll-like comments and misinformation. Naturally they get heavily downvoted by the real users in r/btc. They spend their time constantly causing as much drama as possible. At every opportunity they scream about "censorship" in r/btc while they are happy about the censorship in r/bitcoin. These people are astroturfers. What someone somewhere worked out, is that all you have to do to take down a community is say that you are on their side. It is an astoundingly effective form of psychological attack.

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Timetwister dijo:

Acabo de hacer una transacción como experimento metiendo un fee de más o menos 0.01 BTC, que normalmente sería una salvajada, y ni eso se está confirmando.

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Sr.Elemento dijo:

Cae el precio un 20% y tenemos a los dos badulaques de keinur y tixel floodeando el hilo con sus guano.

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Timetwister dijo:

Acabo de hacer una transacción como experimento metiendo un fee de más o menos 0.01 BTC, que normalmente sería una salvajada, y ni eso se está confirmando.

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keinur dijo:

Me parto la caja con estos mensajes tipo "no pasa nah, estamos por encima de todo esto, tenemos la situación controlada, bla bla bla"

No se a quien queréis engañar, pero cuanto antes os deis cuenta del ridículo que estáis haciendo fingiendo que la cosa no va con vosotros, mejor.

Asumid vuestras defecadas, y sigamos adelante. Es así de fácil.

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Edu.R dijo:

Tenemos hoy un día muy interesante. Veo que por la noche ha habido un travase brutalísimo de cash de BTC a BCH, que ha vuelto al redil para quedarse donde estaba anoche. Como si no hubiera pasado nada, vaya, movimiento puramente artificial. Y de hecho el movimiento sigue.

A ver que entre Gold a jugar... una vez pase el día de hoy, excepcional como casi ninguno en mucho tiempo, y quizás un par de días más para estabilizar todo, veremos donde quedan las cotizaciones.

En mi opinión ponerse medallitas por acertar algo a 2-3 días vista es un error. Algunos estáis criticando y poniendo a parir a foreros que si ahora mismo quisieran, podrían vivir sin preocupaciones durante la vida que les queda. Esta gente lleva años con criptodivisas y saben como funciona esto y no van con esa arrogancia de 'soy Dios' ni con insultos hacia nadie.

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keinur dijo:

Me parto la caja con estos mensajes tipo "no pasa nah, estamos por encima de todo esto, tenemos la situación controlada, bla bla bla"

No se a quien queréis engañar, pero cuanto antes os deis cuenta del ridículo que estáis haciendo fingiendo que la cosa no va con vosotros, mejor.

Asumid vuestras defecadas, y sigamos adelante. Es así de fácil.

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sirpask dijo:

¿Pero entonces va a ser una Blockchain privada? Por que en github tengo yo mas entradas y colaboración que ellos.


Si es asi, cuadra con lo que dice Antonopoulus..

Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash will coexist and serve different use cases, just like Bitcoin and Ethereum. Its not a zero sum game. Work on building your project, not on destroying the other

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