Criollos turned on each other after independence
A forum debate argues that Spanish colonies fractured into civil wars after expelling Spain, lacking a unified project rather than failing due to genetics.
English · Original discussion in Spanish · Published
Criollos turned on each other after independence
The viceroyalty shattered, and former royal subjects launched wars of power against one another. This is the opening thesis: after expelling the Spanish, new states quickly fractured into civil wars and uprisings, splitting the viceroyalties. According to this account, Gran Colombia lasted little, the Peruvian Confederation collapsed, the Aztec Confederation shrank to a third, and Paraguay nearly vanished to Brazil.
The Plan of Iguala and the lack of a common goal
The most repeated diagnosis points not to genetics but to the absence of a project. The aristocracy, bourgeoisie, clergy, and military lacked a single goal for independence. Mexico’s Plan of Iguala is cited as an example of meaningless juntas and declarations of empires that ended in nothing. In these brutal processes, opposition that could act as a check is destroyed, allowing anyone to seize power, only to have it taken by another.
The comparison with Europe serves as a counterweight. Spain faced Carlist wars, Napoleonic invasion, Trafalgar, Riego’s 1820 rebellion, and the 1868 Revolution; France, the 1830 and 1848 revolutions; Prussia fought Denmark and Austria; and Italian unification left the Battle of Solferino. The 19th century was not peaceful anywhere. The difference, another current points, is that Europe had a state being rebuilt, while here it did not.
Why blame Spain for the subsequent failure?
Part of the discussion argues that national failure is blamed on Spain, while Italy, Britain, or Germany are idealized. It is argued that 19th-century European immigrants to the Southern Cone initially chose central Europe, settling for Italians when Germans were lacking. Regarding Spaniards, only northerners, considered pure Europeans (mostly Galicians), were allowed entry, while Andalusians and Canarians went to Brazil, Cuba, and Puerto Rico.
The counterargument is that no Argentine hates Spain and the claim is an invention. The discussion shifts to genetics: it is claimed that a Spaniard has, on average, 60% pre-Roman peoples' genetics, compared to 15-20% indigenous in the average Argentine, and that the Argentine archetype will disappear. The response is that if Spaniards' children were mixed with indigenous people, it was Spain's fault for mixing.
The creole elite and treatment of indigenous people
A recurring analysis points out that creoles were more racist and classist than anyone with indigenous people, and when they held power over natives, they behaved despotically. The Crown, according to this reading, controlled creole entry into authority positions precisely due to the excesses known to them. Not all were, but this trend partly explains the uprising of a fraction against the peninsulars.
The Chilean case is cited as an example: the so-called Castilian-Basque aristocracy formed the elite from 1818, with surnames like Aldunate, Allende, Barros, Eyzaguirre, Carrera, Errázuriz, Irarrázaval, Larraín, Matte, Vicuña, or Zañartu, sharing power with French, Portuguese, and German families.
The genetic map of the western peninsula
The conversation shifts to peninsular genetics. It is claimed that, according to the G25 tool, the Extremaduran resembles Portuguese, Galician, Leonese, Andalusian, and Murcian people more than Castilians, with increasing genetic distance from the fourth position. The conclusion drawn is that western peninsular people share more with each other than with the east.
The objection is that Portuguese are Spanish, the same people, and that Extremadurans resemble Castilian-Leonese, Galician, and Andalusian people most. The exchange closes without agreement.
The surprising data is not in the 19th century but the 21st: while debating whether those creoles hated each other enough to kill one another, the most repeated conclusion is that the hatred attributed to Spain has no documentary basis and that blood, in the words of one participant, is everything.
The viceroyalty shattered, and former royal subjects launched wars of power against one another. This is the opening thesis: after expelling the Spanish, new states quickly fractured into civil wars and uprisings, splitting the viceroyalties. According to this account, Gran Colombia lasted little, the Peruvian Confederation collapsed, the Aztec Confederation shrank to a third, and Paraguay nearly vanished to Brazil.
The Plan of Iguala and the lack of a common goal
The most repeated diagnosis points not to genetics but to the absence of a project. The aristocracy, bourgeoisie, clergy, and military lacked a single goal for independence. Mexico’s Plan of Iguala is cited as an example of meaningless juntas and declarations of empires that ended in nothing. In these brutal processes, opposition that could act as a check is destroyed, allowing anyone to seize power, only to have it taken by another.
The comparison with Europe serves as a counterweight. Spain faced Carlist wars, Napoleonic invasion, Trafalgar, Riego’s 1820 rebellion, and the 1868 Revolution; France, the 1830 and 1848 revolutions; Prussia fought Denmark and Austria; and Italian unification left the Battle of Solferino. The 19th century was not peaceful anywhere. The difference, another current points, is that Europe had a state being rebuilt, while here it did not.
Why blame Spain for the subsequent failure?
Part of the discussion argues that national failure is blamed on Spain, while Italy, Britain, or Germany are idealized. It is argued that 19th-century European immigrants to the Southern Cone initially chose central Europe, settling for Italians when Germans were lacking. Regarding Spaniards, only northerners, considered pure Europeans (mostly Galicians), were allowed entry, while Andalusians and Canarians went to Brazil, Cuba, and Puerto Rico.
The counterargument is that no Argentine hates Spain and the claim is an invention. The discussion shifts to genetics: it is claimed that a Spaniard has, on average, 60% pre-Roman peoples' genetics, compared to 15-20% indigenous in the average Argentine, and that the Argentine archetype will disappear. The response is that if Spaniards' children were mixed with indigenous people, it was Spain's fault for mixing.
The creole elite and treatment of indigenous people
A recurring analysis points out that creoles were more racist and classist than anyone with indigenous people, and when they held power over natives, they behaved despotically. The Crown, according to this reading, controlled creole entry into authority positions precisely due to the excesses known to them. Not all were, but this trend partly explains the uprising of a fraction against the peninsulars.
The Chilean case is cited as an example: the so-called Castilian-Basque aristocracy formed the elite from 1818, with surnames like Aldunate, Allende, Barros, Eyzaguirre, Carrera, Errázuriz, Irarrázaval, Larraín, Matte, Vicuña, or Zañartu, sharing power with French, Portuguese, and German families.
The genetic map of the western peninsula
The conversation shifts to peninsular genetics. It is claimed that, according to the G25 tool, the Extremaduran resembles Portuguese, Galician, Leonese, Andalusian, and Murcian people more than Castilians, with increasing genetic distance from the fourth position. The conclusion drawn is that western peninsular people share more with each other than with the east.
The objection is that Portuguese are Spanish, the same people, and that Extremadurans resemble Castilian-Leonese, Galician, and Andalusian people most. The exchange closes without agreement.
The surprising data is not in the 19th century but the 21st: while debating whether those creoles hated each other enough to kill one another, the most repeated conclusion is that the hatred attributed to Spain has no documentary basis and that blood, in the words of one participant, is everything.
Summary of a discussion on Burbuja.info - Foro de economía, actualidad y política., translated from Spanish and reviewed before publication. Read the full discussion (144 replies).
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