Burbuja Económica > Foros > Burbuja Inmobiliaria > Los planes de rescate podrían forzar una segunda depresión
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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 12:47
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Lo que hemos dicho algunos ya, que los planes de rescate no son un estímulo sino un depresor de la economía, porque el gobierno acapara el crédito del mercado y se lo quita a las empresas privadas, que no pueden invertir para salir de la crisis, y eso provoca además un recrudecimiento.

La crisis no es el problema, es la solución. El problema fueron los años de desfase que llevamos. Eso se tiene que pagar. La crisis es la cura, que aunque sea duro, se tiene que dejar que ocurra para renovar el mercado. Intentar parar o ralentizar la crisis solo la alargará y la empeorará.

U.S. rescue efforts may risk double-dip recession | Reuters

U.S. rescue efforts may risk double-dip recession

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. companies, consumers and communities may grow so addicted to government financial help that cutting them off could trigger another recession soon after the current one ends.

Between the U.S. Federal Reserve's trillions of dollars in lending programs, the $787 billion stimulus package and $700 billion -- and counting -- in bank bailout funds, no one can accuse officials of soft-pedaling their crisis response.

But there is increasing concern that when the flow of public money subsides -- beginning next year when much of that stimulus package is spent -- the economy still won't be strong enough to stand on its own.

"The stuttering attempts to repair the banking and lending mechanisms so far by the new administration suggests that by late 2010, the specter of a second dip into recession will be looming large," said Merrill Lynch economist Sheryl King.

The latest evidence of the government's ever-changing plans came on Monday when insurer American International Group Inc got its third bailout, each with different terms.

That did nothing to improve confidence on Wall Street, where investors dumped stocks amid fears that the financial crisis was worsening.

The longer it takes to stabilize the financial sector, the more the economy suffers, and that feeds back into bigger loan losses and the need for even more government intervention.

John Silvia, chief economist at Wachovia, said the government's success so far in shoring up markets and reviving the economy resembled the pattern of police patrols.

"At each corner where a policeman is stationed, we witness a decline in crime," he said. "In every market where the Fed focuses its liquidity facilities," credit conditions improve.

Unfortunately, where there is no direct government support, conditions are grim. Merrill expects unemployment to hit 10 percent by the end of 2009, with house prices losing 10 percent to 15 percent more and the stock market dropping another 20 percent.

That could erase $6.5 trillion off of household wealth, on top of the $12 trillion hit consumers have already taken, Merrill's King estimated.

SECURITY BLANKET

Those losses are a key reason why it is proving so difficult for the government to get much traction with its rescue plans because consumer spending accounts for more than two-thirds of economic activity.

Data released on Monday showed that Americans were rapidly rebuilding savings that they had run down in recent years when it seemed like rising home values and healthy stock markets would be enough to pay for retirement.

While that may be good for the global economy, which many economists say has been over-reliant on U.S. consumption, "recession has never been successfully arrested with austerity," Citigroup economist Steven Wieting said

"While consumers in the U.S. will likely never really be the same as they were in the last decade, we can identify no source of growth for the global economy that doesn't involve a partial recovery in U.S. consumption," he said.

If spending isn't going back to the way it was, that may make it even harder for the government to ease up on aid.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke have warned repeatedly of the risk of pulling away the economic supports too soon. However, Bernanke and other Fed officials have also stressed the need for a clear exit strategy to ensure that their repair efforts don't spawn inflation.

EXIT STRATEGY

In essence, the Fed and Treasury have been forced to take the place of the securitization market, where countless loans were repackaged and sold off to investors all over the world. While that proved to be the transmission mechanism for the financial crisis, it was also a vital aspect of lending and its collapse contributed to the global economic slump.

The Fed's own lending data shows that efforts to get money flowing again were having limited effect on the broader economy. Confidence has fallen so sharply that even those who can get credit are reluctant to borrow and spend.

According to the Fed's January survey of senior loan officers, 60 percent of domestic banks reported reduced demand for commercial and industrial loans, up from 15 percent in the October survey.

Some of the Fed's lending programs should wind down with little disruption because once credit markets improve, borrowers will be able to find better terms elsewhere, and the central bank can once again be the lender of last resort instead of the only viable option.

Extricating the Fed and Treasury from other means of support won't be so easy.

"Major industries have become dependent on federal assistance, and they will be followed by cities and states bearing mind-boggling requests," investor Warren Buffett wrote in his annual letter to shareholders. "Weaning these entities from the public teat will be a political challenge. They won't leave willingly."



Hugo


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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 13:11
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Se estudiará en la Universidad en 2040, el efecto expulsión y el proteccionismo ( con la consiguiente falta de competitividad) alargan la salida de la crisis.

Los políticos cuidan el establishment, son unos hijos de ... Don fabrizio, se agarran al gatopardismo.

sería cómico si no fuera tan nocivo ver como Sarkozy predica contra el proteccionismo y las ayudas que propone para "su" industria del automóvil.
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"Aunque todo lo demás falle, siempre podemos asegurarnos la inmortalidad cometiendo algún error espectacular."


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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 13:39
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Las crisis mundiales son tan necesarias como las personales por las que atravesemos. Después del exceso crediticio vino la sobreproducción o exceso de oferta y la inflación inducida alimentados por el primero. Países como USA con ahorro negativo no se sostienen porque viven con renta futura que además, hoy por hoy, no está en absoluto garantizada. El futuro pasa por dejar de ser consumidores compulsivos y buscarnos la vida como empresarios en países en desarrollo, donde la demanda si es necesaria y sostenible a largo plazo.
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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 13:45
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Iniciado por hugolp Ver Mensaje
Lo que hemos dicho algunos ya, que los planes de rescate no son un estímulo sino un depresor de la economía, porque el gobierno acapara el crédito del mercado y se lo quita a las empresas privadas, que no pueden invertir para salir de la crisis, y eso provoca además un recrudecimiento.

La crisis no es el problema, es la solución. El problema fueron los años de desfase que llevamos. Eso se tiene que pagar. La crisis es la cura, que aunque sea duro, se tiene que dejar que ocurra para renovar el mercado. Intentar parar o ralentizar la crisis solo la alargará y la empeorará.

U.S. rescue efforts may risk double-dip recession | Reuters

U.S. rescue efforts may risk double-dip recession

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. companies, consumers and communities may grow so addicted to government financial help that cutting them off could trigger another recession soon after the current one ends.

Between the U.S. Federal Reserve's trillions of dollars in lending programs, the $787 billion stimulus package and $700 billion -- and counting -- in bank bailout funds, no one can accuse officials of soft-pedaling their crisis response.

But there is increasing concern that when the flow of public money subsides -- beginning next year when much of that stimulus package is spent -- the economy still won't be strong enough to stand on its own.

"The stuttering attempts to repair the banking and lending mechanisms so far by the new administration suggests that by late 2010, the specter of a second dip into recession will be looming large," said Merrill Lynch economist Sheryl King.

The latest evidence of the government's ever-changing plans came on Monday when insurer American International Group Inc got its third bailout, each with different terms.

That did nothing to improve confidence on Wall Street, where investors dumped stocks amid fears that the financial crisis was worsening.

The longer it takes to stabilize the financial sector, the more the economy suffers, and that feeds back into bigger loan losses and the need for even more government intervention.

John Silvia, chief economist at Wachovia, said the government's success so far in shoring up markets and reviving the economy resembled the pattern of police patrols.

"At each corner where a policeman is stationed, we witness a decline in crime," he said. "In every market where the Fed focuses its liquidity facilities," credit conditions improve.

Unfortunately, where there is no direct government support, conditions are grim. Merrill expects unemployment to hit 10 percent by the end of 2009, with house prices losing 10 percent to 15 percent more and the stock market dropping another 20 percent.

That could erase $6.5 trillion off of household wealth, on top of the $12 trillion hit consumers have already taken, Merrill's King estimated.

SECURITY BLANKET

Those losses are a key reason why it is proving so difficult for the government to get much traction with its rescue plans because consumer spending accounts for more than two-thirds of economic activity.

Data released on Monday showed that Americans were rapidly rebuilding savings that they had run down in recent years when it seemed like rising home values and healthy stock markets would be enough to pay for retirement.

While that may be good for the global economy, which many economists say has been over-reliant on U.S. consumption, "recession has never been successfully arrested with austerity," Citigroup economist Steven Wieting said

"While consumers in the U.S. will likely never really be the same as they were in the last decade, we can identify no source of growth for the global economy that doesn't involve a partial recovery in U.S. consumption," he said.

If spending isn't going back to the way it was, that may make it even harder for the government to ease up on aid.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke have warned repeatedly of the risk of pulling away the economic supports too soon. However, Bernanke and other Fed officials have also stressed the need for a clear exit strategy to ensure that their repair efforts don't spawn inflation.

EXIT STRATEGY

In essence, the Fed and Treasury have been forced to take the place of the securitization market, where countless loans were repackaged and sold off to investors all over the world. While that proved to be the transmission mechanism for the financial crisis, it was also a vital aspect of lending and its collapse contributed to the global economic slump.

The Fed's own lending data shows that efforts to get money flowing again were having limited effect on the broader economy. Confidence has fallen so sharply that even those who can get credit are reluctant to borrow and spend.

According to the Fed's January survey of senior loan officers, 60 percent of domestic banks reported reduced demand for commercial and industrial loans, up from 15 percent in the October survey.

Some of the Fed's lending programs should wind down with little disruption because once credit markets improve, borrowers will be able to find better terms elsewhere, and the central bank can once again be the lender of last resort instead of the only viable option.

Extricating the Fed and Treasury from other means of support won't be so easy.

"Major industries have become dependent on federal assistance, and they will be followed by cities and states bearing mind-boggling requests," investor Warren Buffett wrote in his annual letter to shareholders. "Weaning these entities from the public teat will be a political challenge. They won't leave willingly."



Hugo



Se darán cuenta cuando sea demasiado tarde y no puedan rescatar lo irescatable.............queda poco....
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“Se va a producir una subida brutal del precio de la vivienda a partir de enero con la apertura del grifo aliñada con tipos bajísimos y todos los compradores que no han podido comprar durante el ultimo año van a ir en masa a comprar”
NOTA: Ni puta idea del momento mundial que asistimos


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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 14:08
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Mira, Hugo, has posteado algo con lo que estoy de acuerdo.


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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 14:11
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Yo no tengo ni puta idea, pero había leído que precisamente en la Gran Depresión no se tomo ninguna medida, ni se rescató nada ni nada...se dejaron las cosas transcurrir tal y como salieron por decirlo de alguna manera.

No lo tomeís como que estoy a favor o en contra de nada.


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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 14:26
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Yo no tengo ni puta idea, pero había leído que precisamente en la Gran Depresión no se tomo ninguna medida, ni se rescató nada ni nada...se dejaron las cosas transcurrir tal y como salieron por decirlo de alguna manera.

No lo tomeís como que estoy a favor o en contra de nada.

Igual eso es lo que te quieren hacer creer , ¿ de verdad crees que en un proceso que duro varios años y del que no se salio hasta despues de las Segunda Guerra Mundial, no se hizo nada ?
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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 14:28
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Igual eso es lo que te quieren hacer creer , ¿ de verdad crees que en un proceso que duro varios años y del que no se salio hasta despues de las Segunda Guerra Mundial, no se hizo nada ?

Bueno sí, se hizo una guerra es verdad

No en serio, yo no lo sé.


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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 14:37
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Yo no tengo ni puta idea, pero había leído que precisamente en la Gran Depresión no se tomo ninguna medida, ni se rescató nada ni nada...se dejaron las cosas transcurrir tal y como salieron por decirlo de alguna manera.

No lo tomeís como que estoy a favor o en contra de nada.


Y el New Deal? Y no solo fue FDR y su New Deal. También Hoover, el presidente que estaba al cargo antes de FDR, cuando petó la bolsa en 1929, intervino masivamente en la economía. De hecho, Hoover elevó el deficit del gobierno USA a niveles nunca vistos, y tuvo que hacer dimitir a su primer secretario del tesoro, porque se negaba a ello.

Si tienes curiosidad y algo de tiempo libre: Contents - America's Great Depression, by Murray N. Rothbard

Además, no solo se intervino en la Gran Depresión cuando ya había petado, la Gran Depresión fue provocada por los "roaring 20's" y la expansión de crédito que se llevó a cabo, similar a lo que ha sucedido durante estos años precedentes de boom y lo que está sucediendo ahora mismo.

Hugo

Última edición por hugolp; 03-mar-2009 a las 14:41


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Antiguo 03-mar-2009, 14:42
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Los precios (especialmente de los tochos) TIENEN QUE CAER.


Que los precios de los tochos caigan no es una desgracia universal, es la CONDICION NECESARIA para la recuperación.

Mientras que los planes de rejcate siguen obsesionados con:

...salvemos a los bancos para....restaurar el crédito....conseguir que los precios de tochos y acciones suban....vían efecto riqueza,conseguir que se reanime el consumo y por tanto el empleo

When Does Faith in Financial Engineering Wane?

This is not meant to imply that restarting credit markets is not a worthy effort. The opposite is true; ********ing credit markets are important to economic growth...but ********ing likely means a return to conventional underwriting metrics, and thus housing prices will remain depressed. Indeed, I think a good argument can be made that, under conventional norms, homes price should decrease until mortgage payments are less than the rental equivalent (after accounting for the hassles and costs of home ownership).

Policymakers are assuming that restoring proper ********ing in credit markets - and confidence in general - is equivalent to a housing price rebound. They seem incapable of envisioning a world in which this is not the case. This tunnel vision prevents policymakers of trying to devise policy which assumes that the many of the assets in the banking system are simply "bad." For Bernanke and Geithner, there are no bad assets. Only misunderstood assets.


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